This site is provided as a service of SCI Shared Resources, LLC. received the Lifetime Impact Award from the Coalition for Jewish Learning of Share your thoughts and memories of Jerry, Share your thoughts and memories with family and friends of Jerry. Jerry Benjamin was born in unknown place. His funeral service will be held graveside Friday, March 3, 2023 in Emanu-El Cemetery "Maryville", Sycamore Avenue, at 10:00 a.m. 2017-2023 Tribute Archive. Obituary Today Yesterday This Week This Month Explore All In memoriam Richard Jobe 1936 - 2022 In Memoriam Douglas Arthur 1945 - 2013 In Memoriam Oneita (aka Nita) Kordis 1925 - 2023 In Memoriam. Prepare a personalized obituary for someone you loved.. July 3, 1933 - Create an obituary. He earned a bachelors degree in English at that his whole life.. After retiring from 19 years as an educator, he and Kaymoved to Fort Smith, Arkansas where he taught at University of Arkansas at Fort Smith. ; his grandchildren, Acen Kelley, Azariah Kelley and Annabeth Rhodes; and his siblings, Mike Kelley (Jenny) and Junise Stracener. Jerry and Marlene were the proud grandparents of 35 grandchildren and 40 great-grandchildren. Jerry is preceded in death by his parents August and Marie, sister Alice Emery, and great-granddaughter Nella Marie Bower. Jerry was born on April 12, 1947 in Marietta, Georgia to Mr. James Belvey Chapman and Mrs. Maggie Cunningham Chapman. He lived more lives than 10 separate individuals would have, Maistelman said. It may take up to 1 hour for your comment to appear on the website. He was 83 years old. for literature. Wednesday. Copyright 2007 - 23 White Funeral Homes. During the summer months, Jerry and Karen spent many years at the family cabin on McClelland’s beach, and most recently renting a cabin on Crandall’s beach, where they enjoyed visiting with the neighbors, sitting on the deck looking at the water, hosting family gatherings, and really enjoyed the lake life. Also surviving are six loving grandchildren Deborah (Matt), Levi (Deidra), Erin (Kirk), Heather, Titus (Corina) and Angela (Bradly) along with fourteen loving and precious great grandchildren. He had a library at home In addition to his passionate interests in Jewish education, Jewish Pearlman). Jerry Edward Harris Obituary. Jerry loved walking with Barbara down to a coffee shop in Boulder five times a week. Simondet, Jerome Benjamin (Jerry), age 91 of Burnsville, MN, passed away on March 3, 2022, ready to resume his new life with his precious wife, Marlene, who passed away on May 3, 2014. Sysoon is a free resource for finding the final resting places of famous folks, friends and family members and contains listings for thousands of celebrity graves, making it the premier online destination for tombstone tourists. Marriage And Family Therapists generally specialize in Anxiety and Depression, in addition to other issues. his father, grandparents and other relatives are buried. Blogs; Online will; Shop. With millions of names, it's an invaluable tool for genealogist and history buffs. Name it, and Benjamin had a hand in creating it or advocating for it. Jerry Benjamin spoke in March of 2018 when he was awarded the Lifetime Impact Award by the Coalition for Jewish Learning of Milwaukee Jewish Federation. A gathering to honor and remember Jerry's life will be held privately by the family at a later date . Funeral arrangement under the care ofOsterberg Funeral Home. He earned his Doctor of Divinity at Iliff School of Theology in Denver. We are sad to announce that on June 29, 2022 we had to say goodbye to Jerry Benjamin of Jackson, Minnesota, born in Sherburn, Minnesota. Jerry was also involved with American Legion Post #130 in Jackson, serving as Commander, Adjutant, and loyal patriotic member for 66 years. You can even leave 'virtual flowers' on the memorials you visit to complete the online cemetery experience. Memorial service for Jerry B. Fuller, 72, of Calhoun, LA will be held at 2:00 P.M., Sunday, September 4, 2022, at Lea Joyner United Methodist Church, Monroe, LA. They welcomed refugees, women from a local shelter, exchange students, and their sons friends to stay in their home. He was baptized on March 26, 1937, at the Presbyterian Church, and confirmed on March 10, 1963, at Our Redeemer Lutheran Church in Jackson, where he was a current member. Leave a sympathy message to the family on the memorial page of Jerry Benjamin Kelley Jr. to pay them a last tribute. Benjamin also co-founded the Coalition for Alternatives in Jewish Education, a national Jewish educators conference still in operation today. Due to the COVID-19 crisis and in accordance with CDC guidelines, we are limiting the gathering to 50 persons or less in order to protect the health of the Kelley family, our community, and our associates. With over 1,900 locations, Dignity Memorial providers proudly serve over 375,000 families a year. Also survived by sister Michele (Curt) Schiebel, sisters-in-law Catherine Simondet and Connie Aram, and brothers-in-law Lawrence Schaefer, David DuLac, and Jerry DuLac. Copyright 2023 Echovita Inc. All rights reserved. Born in 1951, Benjamin grew up in Ohio, attending Case Western Reserve University and later earning a masters degree in education at Harvard University. Jerry Benjamin, an activist for Jewish educational and political causes and former president of Milwaukee Jewish Federation, died in Boston on May 11, 2019. They climbed Longs Peak and Pikes Peak together. 2023 SCI SHARED RESOURCES, LLC. Memorials are rich with content, including dates, photos and bios. deserve to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and had a deep appreciation Jerry was also involved with American Legion Post #130 in Jackson, serving as Commander, Adjutant, and loyal patriotic member for 66 years. He was baptized on March 26, 1937, at the Presbyterian Church, and confirmed on March 10, 1963, at Our Redeemer Lutheran Church in Jackson, where he was a current member. Survivors, heirs and families ultimately received $306 million through the commissions work. July 31, 2020. Funeral service will be live streamed on the Our Redeemer Lutheran Church Jackson, Facebook page. We are sad to announce that on February 27, 2023, at the age of 79, Jerry Edward Harris of Pampa, Texas, born in Warren, Arkansas passed away. He loved art, he loved Texas FD #3523, #5075, #3185, #3349, #3705 They got a coffee and talked to everyone who walked in. Students Network; in 1983 he helped found Milwaukees Lake Park Synagogue and Theres no one Jerry met that wasnt impacted and He loved spending as much time as he could with his grandchildren and great grandchildren. affected. story.. Please contact your local Neptune Society office for cremation prices, and to learn more about our cremation service. Echovita offers a solidarity program that gives back the funds generated to families. "He was a great dad and grandfather, and the most dedicated husband to. Authorize the publication of the original written obituary with the accompanying photo. What is Archives, Military records of Jerry Benjamin at Fold3.com. Burial will be following the service at Riverside Cemetery in Jackson, with Military Honors performed by Jackson American Legion Post #130. Average Age & Life Expectancy Jerry C Benjamin lived 11 years shorter than the average Benjamin family member when he died at the age of 60. served as the congregations first president; he chaired the National Young Arbit. Milwaukee Jewish Federation. Its exciting to be part of the Jewish The list goes on and on for the prominent Milwaukee Jewish community leader, activist, political consultant and businessman. After14 years, Jerry and Kay moved back home to Texas.During his time with us his passions were his family, fishing, photography, boating, beingoutdoors, traveling and being close to the water.  Jerry adored his grandchildren and great-grandchildren, cherishing each and every moment that he spent with them.  Jerry has left a lifetime of memories for his family to cherish, and his famous words of wisdom to all were “Keep your Chin Up,” and “Keep it between the lines.”

Jerry is survived by his wife of 64 years Karen; son Michael (Jane) Benjamin of Hartford, South Dakota; daughters Kimberly (special friend Keith McGruder) Helgeson of Eyota, Minnesota, Susan (Mark) McCorkendale of Hardin, Missouri, and Amy (David) Espinoza of San Antonio, Texas; sister Kay (Roger) Johnson of Jackson, along with 9 grandchildren and 14 great-grandchildren, along with many nieces and nephews.

Jerry is preceded in death by his parents August and Marie, sister Alice Emery, and great-granddaughter Nella Marie Bower.

Blessed be the memory of Gerald Dean Benjamin.

. There is no photo or video of Jerry Benjamin Kelley Jr..Be the first to share a memory to pay tribute. "There's no one Jerry met that wasn't impacted and affected. On Wednesday, June 29, 2022, Jerry passed away in Spirit Lake, Iowa at the age of 88 years, 11 months, and 26 days. political causes and former president of Milwaukee Jewish Federation, died in Boston ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Echovita Inc is a registered trademark. Jerry C Benjamin of Hudson, Saint Croix County, Wisconsin was born on September 27, 1937. The only hour they were apart during those trips was when Barbara would go horseback riding, which she loved. The importance of saying "I love you" during COVID-19, Effective ways of dealing with the grieving process, Solutions to show your sympathy safely during the Covid-19 pandemic. Jerry worked in law enforcement for 23 years, serving as Deputy Sheriff from 1963-1969, and as Sheriff from 1969-1986. He was an incredible mensch.. Jerry was a pastor at Grace Presbyterian Church in Winona MN, United Presbyterian Church in Keokuk, IA, Presbyterian Church of Broomfield, CO, and Tieton Presbyterian Church in Tieton, WA. In 1984, he went back to complete his Bachelors of Science at Tarleton State Universityand began teaching World Geography at Mineral Wells High School. On November 17, 1957, Jerry was united in marriage to Karen Grunst at the Kimball Lutheran Church. Simondet, Jerome Benjamin (Jerry), age 91 of Burnsville, MN, passed away on March 3, 2022, ready to resume his new life with his precious wife, Marlene, who passed away on May 3, 2014. If you want to see Jerry Benjamin, please contact him. Gerald Dean Benjamin, son of August and Marie (Hunt) Benjamin was born on Monday, July 3, 1933, in Sherburn, Minnesota. They read together mornings, afternoons, evenings, and nights. They had two children, and four grandchildren. Blessed be the memory of Gerald Dean Benjamin. Knowing he wanted to bea college professor, in 1996 he received his Masters of Science degree in Geography fromTexas A&M University (Aggies insert whoops here). He is survived by his wife of nearly 60 years, Kay Benjamin, who he met first in the 8th grade and eventually married on July 21st 1962. said Rick Meyer, former CEO of the Federation. effort to locate all of the worlds living Holocaust survivors and assist them There is no photo or video of Jerry Benjamin.Be the first to share a memory to pay tribute. He wrote mystery short stories and at least one book. 5260 Daniel J. Enea, Manager. None of the insurance products promoted at this sales event are endorsed by those organizations, all of which offer free advice to veterans about how to qualify and apply for benefits. Receive a notification when services are updated. We are sad to announce that on August 12, 2022, at the age of 62, Jerry Benjamin Kelley Jr. of Pickens, South Carolina, born in Easley, South Carolina passed away. Jerry is survived by his wife of 64 years Karen; son Michael (Jane) Benjamin of Hartford, South Dakota; daughters Kimberly (special friend Keith McGruder) Helgeson of Eyota, Minnesota, Susan (Mark) McCorkendale of Hardin, Missouri, and Amy (David) Espinoza of San Antonio, Texas; sister Kay (Roger) Johnson of Jackson, along with 9 grandchildren and 14 great-grandchildren, along with many nieces and nephews. The Social Security Death Index includes over 200 million citizen death records. All rights reserved. Write a brief biography of the deceased and present it to the world. Jerry Benjamin Kelley Sr., age 79, of Easley, South Carolina, born May 18, 1940 went to be with our Lord on April 7, 2020. Tuesday, Mar 8, 2022 He worked as a janitor for the Cobb County School District. Mr. Many people choose to share their Memorial Websites in Sysoons Featured Memorial Website Program. Help tell the story of your loved ones unique life. Comfort the family with flowers or a sympathy gift. "Jerry was bigger than life," said his longtime business partner and friend Bruce Arbit. Your entry has exceeded the maximum character limit. Prepare a personalized obituary for someone you loved.. November 22, 1959 - Over the past 47+ years, our experienced team has assisted families, their loved ones, and caregivers in carrying out final wishes more affordably, with dignity and respect. Send a note, share a story or upload a photo.  Jerry adored his grandchildren and great-grandchildren, cherishing each and every moment that he spent with them.  Jerry has left a lifetime of memories for his family to cherish, and his famous words of wisdom to all were “Keep your Chin Up,” and “Keep it between the lines.”

Jerry is survived by his wife of 64 years Karen; son Michael (Jane) Benjamin of Hartford, South Dakota; daughters Kimberly (special friend Keith McGruder) Helgeson of Eyota, Minnesota, Susan (Mark) McCorkendale of Hardin, Missouri, and Amy (David) Espinoza of San Antonio, Texas; sister Kay (Roger) Johnson of Jackson, along with 9 grandchildren and 14 great-grandchildren, along with many nieces and nephews.

Jerry is preceded in death by his parents August and Marie, sister Alice Emery, and great-granddaughter Nella Marie Bower.

Blessed be the memory of Gerald Dean Benjamin.

. A unique and lasting tribute for a loved one. To send flowers to the family or plant a tree in memory of Jerry Benjamin please visit our,

 

Gerald “Jerry” Benjamin, age 88 of Jackson, Minnesota passed away on Wednesday, June 29, 2022, in Spirit Lake, Iowa. Data in Israel, and in 1985 Conceptually, it didnt exist, Ariel said. He found a way to take a company that collected and sold addresses, We are currently preparing a system for publishing answers. . The Evans, (the highest road in the continental United States), every time someone came to visitand people always came to visit. Leadership Cabinet of the United Jewish Appeal in the 1990s; and was a longtime You can even leave virtual flowers on the memorials you visit to complete the online cemetery experience. No services are scheduled at this time. His interest in education continued later in life, too he served on the board for the Milwaukee Institute of Art & Design for 13 years. Created by: Martin Dano Jerry was a poet and an author. He also was Jackson County Commissioner from 1991-2003, until he retired. JACKSON Gerald "Jerry" Dean Benjamin passed away Wednesday, June 29, 2022, in Spirit Lake, Iowa, at the age of 88 years, 11 months, and 26 days. He was baptized on March 26, 1937, at the Presbyterian Church, and confirmed on March 10, 1963, at Our Redeemer Lutheran Church in Jackson, where he was a current member. He was born March 8, 1941 in Hillsdale, Michigan to George and Ruth (Whaley) Benjamin.<br><br>Jerry married Jacqueline Smith on January 1, 2000 in Las Vegas, Nevada. A unique and lasting tribute for a loved one. Mr. Kelley Sr. was owner and operator of K&M Tool and Die which he started back in 1977. Funeral service will be live streamed on the Our Redeemer Lutheran Church Jackson, Facebook page. on May 11, 2019. He was predeceased by : his parents, August Benjamin and Marie Benjamin (Hunt); his sister Alice Emery; and his great grandchild Nella Marie Bower. It was the largest class-action case in history at its time around the turn of the millennium, Arbit said. 2023 Wisconsin Jewish Chronicle | Privacy Policy | Terms of Use. His creativity knew no limits. June 29, 2022 He also was Jackson County Commissioner from 1991-2003, until he retired. After serving as executive director of the Maimonides School, He was a mover and shaker, but he was very humble about it all.. Jerry worked in law enforcement for 23 years, serving as Deputy Sheriff from 1963-1969, and as Sheriff from 1969-1986. Jerry graduated from Bradley University and McCormick Theological Seminary in Chicago. Sysoon memorials are rich with content, including dates, photos and bios. Jerry and his wife, Barbara, shared many similar humanitarian beliefs, and lived a life of service: they marched in civil rights marches in Chicago during the 1960s, they were frequently helpers on the first Tuesdays in November. Jerry attended school in Sherburn, and later graduated from Jackson High School in 1951. In 1952, Jerry enlisted into the United States Air Force, serving during the Korean War. Actor and comedian Jerry Stiller has died due to natural causes, his son, actor Ben Stiller said in a tweet. He was predeceased by : his parent Jerry Kelley, Sr.. All rights reserved. Gerald Jerry Benjamin, age 88 of Jackson, Minnesota passed away on Wednesday, June 29, 2022, in Spirit Lake, Iowa. history, whose story continued to unfold in my lifetime in such interesting He married Barbara Manchester on October 20, 1962. JERRY BENJAMIN OBITUARY Jerry Lee Benjamin, aka "Bear", was born August 5th 1942 in Rockford, Illinois and passed away on February 14, 2022. In additionto his wife Kay, he is also survived by:His daughter Becky Farley, her husband Kyle, and their children; son, Benjamin with his wifeJasmine; and their daughter, Erin.His son, Brian Benjamin, his wife Dee Dee and their children Jordan, Lauren, Reagan, Josephand Jocelyn.His sister, Judy Sullivan and her sons Sean and Tom.His sister-in-law Shirley Riley and her children, Tim Riley, Scott Riley and his children Kayla andConner; Greg Riley and his wife Eva and their daughter Violet.Funeral Services will be held at First Baptist Church in Mineral Wells, Texas at 10:00 AM onFebruary 19, 2022. Funeral services for Mr. Kelley will be private. His creativity knew no limits. Mass of Christian Burial will be held at Church of the Risen Savior, 1501 Co. Rd. Dillard Funeral Home is assisting the Kelley family. Funeral services will be held at 2:00 p.m. on Sunday, July 3, 2022, at Our Redeemer Lutheran Church in Jackson, with Pastor John Schuetz officiating. Two people close to Benjamin described him as a mensch, the Yiddish term for a person with integrity. Jerry Benjamin, an activist for Jewish educational and Click on the address to view a map. Born in West Union, Oconee County, South Carolina, he was the son of the late Allen Kelley and Edith White Kelley. Jewish Federation. A memorial service for Jerry Benjamin. His parents were Alvin and Lucille Benjamin. Benjamin died at age 67 from complications stemming from a bone marrow transplant, his son Ariel said. In 2009, Benjamin was named president of the Milwaukee himself.. He married Barbara Manchester on October 20, 1962. Leave your condolences to the family on this memorial page or send flowers to show you care. Pickens View Wesleyan Church 744 Bethlehem Ridge Rd, Pickens, SC 29671. He was known to be a hard worker and a good business man in the community until retiring from the business in 2018. [more about funeral], Jerry Benjamin at Archives.com. Tags: gravesite, grave, cemetery, crematorium, funeral, genealogy, memorial, burial place, flowers, urn, cremation, remains, funeral, family tree, candles, sympathy gift, photo album, tombstone, headstone, death, dead people, past, find a grave, cemetery location, locate a grave, grave locator, missing, missing people, missing persons, wanted, most wanted, lost people, dead parents, dead childrens, brother, daughter, ancestry. Obituary Gerald "Jerry" Benjamin, age 88 of Jackson, Minnesota passed away on Wednesday, June 29, 2022, in Spirit Lake, Iowa. according to prior Chronicle coverage. New Jersey Residents: N.J. Lic. He had a way of causing everyone around him to feel like they were the most important person to him, Ariel said. In 1975, Benjamin and Rabbi Cherie Koller-Fox organized a Thanks to the loyal support of generations of families, we've now grown to 45 locations nationwide with continued expansion in the future. Jerry was also involved with American Legion Post #130 in Jackson, serving as Commander, Adjutant, and loyal patriotic member for 66 years. For Benjamin, this was about helping right a wrong. Jerry Lee Benjamin, aka Bear, was born August 5th 1942 in Rockford, Illinois and passed awayon February 14, 2022. Mr. Jerry Benjamin Chapman Mr. Jerry Benjamin Chapman, age 75, of Marietta, Georgia passed away on Tuesday, May 17, 2022 at Roselane Health and Rehabilitation Center. He also was Jackson County Commissioner from 1991-2003, until he retired. CANDLE HAS BEEN LIT CANDLES HAVE BEEN LIT, We are reviewing your submission. He will be buried alongside other family members in Rockford, Illinois.In lieu of flowers, donations can be made to South Texas Childrens Home in Beeville, Texas orHappy Hill Farm in Granbury, Texas, or Union Gospel Mission in Fort Worth, Texas. There will be countless organizations and institutions and people that have benefited from his advice and his big ideas that can no longer take advantage of that, Maistelman said. Funeral services will be held at 2:00 p.m. on Sunday, July 3, 2022, at Our Redeemer Lutheran Church in Jackson, with Pastor John Schuetz officiating. Benjamins cousin Michael Maistelman, a Milwaukee lawyer, recalled he was larger than life, commanding a room when he entered. Funeral arrangement under the care ofMountain View Funerals and Cremations. It may take up to 1 hour for your comment to appear on the website. He wrote several unpublished books According to the funeral home, the. He always wanted to bring a smile to a person's face and make people happy. Terms of Use | Privacy. Gerald Dean Benjamin, son of August and Marie (Hunt) Benjamin was born Monday, July 3, 1933, in Sherburn, Minn. Jerry attended school in Sherburn and later graduated from [] Interment will be at Fort Snelling National Cemetery. Jul 20 Obituary: Benjamin Gerald "Jerry" Smith. . Would you like to offer Jerry Benjamin Kelley Jr.s loved ones a condolence message? He is survived by his wife of nearly 60 years, Kay Benjamin, who he metfirst in the 8th grade and eventually married on July 21st 1962. Now they are together again. Harry was a retired franchisee of the Dale Carnegie Course. You can also see how Jerry Benjamin compares to other marriage and family therapists in San Francisco. In 1952, Jerry enlisted into the United States Air Force, serving during the Korean War. August 12, 2022 Jerry attended school in Sherburn, and later graduated from Jackson High School in 1951. His parents were Alvin and Lucille Benjamin. Chuck Burton/AP. Mail Industries in the community of Or Yehuda near Tel Aviv. All Rights Reserved.Funeral Home Website by Batesville | Funeral Planning and Grief Resources Mr. Fuller was born on October 27, 1949, in Monroe, LA . marketing firm A.B. This can be a wonderful, heartwarming experience for all. Jerry attended school in Sherburn, and later graduated from Jackson High School in 1951. Before moving to Birmingham in 1963, he instructed the DCC in St. Petersburg, FL, Daytona Beach, FL . Born in West Union, Oconee County, South Carolina, he was the son of the late Allen Kelley and Edith White Kelley. Jerry has left a lifetime of memories for his family to cherish, and his famous words of wisdom to all were Keep your Chin Up, and Keep it between the lines.. Visitation will be on Sunday, September 4, 2022, at 1:00 P.M. the until time of service at the church. On November 17, 1957, Jerry was united in marriage to Karen Grunst at the Kimball Lutheran Church. Before Jerry Benjamin died May 11, he found himself at the center of history in seemingly countless instances. Leave a sympathy message to the family on the memorial page of Jerry Edward Harris to pay . Rouse Funeral Home. Leave a sympathy message to the family in the guestbook on this memorial page of Jerry Benjamin to show support. Hashtag: sysoon12806674, memorial12806674, grave12806674, death, funeral, findagrave, buria , obituary, c36a12, y Benjamin, obits, ssn, family. What is Fold3. The staff at the coffee shop in Estes Park knew the Benjamins by name. One of his passions was to minister to people in hospitals, those who were alone or ailing in their homes. When new obituaries are added. is survived by his wife Cindy, sons Ariel and Nadav (Lindsay Sommer Benjamin), mother You can become a member, create a memorial, submit data, add flowers, add photos and search our database at no charge. I always was extraordinarily grateful to be part of a Echovita offers a solidarity program that gives back the funds generated to families. He is survived by : his wife Karen Grunst; his children, Michael Benjamin (Jane) of Hartford, Kimberly Helgeson (Keith McGruder) of Eyota, Susan McCorkendale (Mark) of Hardin and Amy Espinoza (David) of San Antonio, Texas; and his sister Kay Johnson (Roger) of Jackson. In the 1990s, working for the Claims Conference, they led an He is survived by : his mother Meg Kelley of Easley, SC; his wife Joyce Kelley; his children, Deborah Rhodes (Matt) of Greenville, SC and Levi Kelley (Deidra) of Pickens, SC. Visitation will be held from 5-7 p.m. on Saturday, July 2, 2022, at the Osterberg Funeral Home, and will continue one hour prior to the funeral service on Sunday, at the church. Make a life-giving gesture. Share Your Memories and Sympathies and Join the Bereaved! Hethen began his career as a Regional Sales Manager selling machine tool equipment, which ledhim to Richardson, Texas for a short period before relocating to Mineral Wells, Texas in May of1972. Receive notifications. It is with deep sorrow that we announce the death of Monroe Benjamin of Newark, New Jersey, born in Boydton, Virginia, who passed away on January 15, 2023, leaving to mourn family and friends. This website was made possible by a grant from the Richard and Nina Edelman Family Fund for Arts and Education. To Benjamin, no feat was impossible. Jerry was also involved with American Legion Post #130 in Jackson, serving as Commander, Adjutant, and loyal patriotic member for 66 years. | All testimonials are written by persons unlicensed and not qualified to make funeral arrangements, embalm or conduct a funeral. They did crosswords together and wrote sermons together discussing points and counterpoints.