This is 11F off the FSM performance graph - vent should be around 50F. Since there is only about a 10% difference between R-12 and R-134a, the expansion valve being self-compensating really doesn't make that much difference. -The amount of R-134a needed will typically be 80-90% of the R-12 charge. But I've read that these car's didn't do too well in the a/c stakes, so that might just be as good as it gets. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." Compared with the cost-performance ratio, R507 is 30-40% . It would make a big difference at idle ,in traffic!! R12 systems used mineral oil, but unfortunately mineral oil doesn't dissolve in R134a. When the temperature is reduced to-7C or below, the plants ability to cool the airdrops significantly. I don't think it has any air dams or seals, I'll check to make sure. Is that why expansion valves are specific to R12 or R134A? This refers to BTU's (heat) moved per pound of refrigerant moved. System has been working fine for a year. Existing technology: R134a has been in use in the refrigeration industry for very many years, and theres so much information about the safe use of the product. They examined the two configurations of capillary tubes i.e. Unfortunately, the R12 refrigerant doesnt always blow cold air. 4) Inconsistent Airflow. If not, you just don't know unless a test is performed. R12 to R134a change expansion valve? - HVAC-Talk: Heating, Air What is a T/C?4. Don't like the sound of custom parallel condensor. The best replacement for R134a is R1234yf, while R12 refrigerant replacement was R134a. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." And no, you cannot "drain' excess oil out. R 134A is designed for the high demands of an automobile AC and cannot be used on refrigerators due to pressure differences. By using a black light the dye will glow in areas where oil leaks are visible. We say generally because the vehicle manufacturer may have a formula already worked out for the R134a conversion process. A. Pressure/temperature plot of R134a vs. R12 is shown in figure 1. Back in that era, my business associates drove those things, brand new, and maybe I should take my Cadillac instead, no they wouldn't be caught dead in a Caddy, people of our esteem should be driving an MB. Are you sure you have an R4? I recommend replacing the expansion valve when you do the swap. My turn to LOL - greasiesel! Jun 17, 2011. However, the supply houses don't indicate a difference. After the initial charge the system is then tweeked : you determine the optimum amount of refrigerant to match your system by monitoring the a/c outlet vent temperature and the high side pressure as you add or remove refrigerant. The larger fitting goes on the discharge port and the smaller fitting goes on the suction line or compressor inlet / suction port. Als nostres webs oferimOne Piece,Doctor Who,Torchwood, El Detectiu ConaniSlam Dunkdoblats en catal. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. Big . Dimensioning of refrigeration components - part 2 - Danfoss But as there's not a big difference, people say you can suffice with either. Air Conditioning Expansion Valve R134a - R12 replacement kit R134a was selected as a replacement refrigerant for R12 because R12 contains chlorine and has a major effect to ozone layer depletion. If you're getting a R134a compressor, might as well finish the job - replace the receiver/dryer, flush everything else, and convert to R134a anyhow. #13. In 1994 they switched from R-12 to R-134a. Looks like a couple of things happening here1) 80's vintage Eurocars were not "meat lockers". Further production of R12 was banned in some developed countries by the Montreal Protocol because of its harsh effect on the ozone layer. ambulance tailgate conversion There are three different refrigerants officially sanctioned by the EPA for automotive usage: r-12, r-. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. The most common influences which effect the capability of R134a to perform well are the condenser, in some cases the the superheat setting of the expansion valve or the amount of R134a. They should be able to keep you comfortable on a long trip, but don't expect vent frost in 3 minutes or lesss.2) Too much oil can reduce cooling capacity, and the effect is not linear. PDF R134a R513A - Tecumseh Products Automotive Replacement Expansion Valves & Parts; Industrial & Scientific; Customer Reviews. Ask Our Pros-Owner Assistance - NO DIY advice will be given. . They can be mounted quite easy,and there is a mounting kit that helps to hang it. The original rubber a/c hose lines in your car will leak out R12 through the hoses lining. I just got some hi/lo side gauges so I'm going to take readings, if they are needed. If there is no pusher fan, and you have the room, put one in. There are two hoses listed, R-12 64-53-1-377-821 for $72.50, and R-134a 64-53-8-391-051 fro $262.50. Your decision could be made based on economics, environmental concerns, or both. That way I will have reduced the oil by about 1/3 (assuming the oil is mixed evenly through the system). Expansion valves are an active device, they regulate the flow of refrigerant to the evaporator depending on evaporator temperature. In addition, R134a refrigerants are not only used in auto air conditioners, they can be used in freezers, aerosol cans, and refrigerators. R134a is the most widely accepted alternative automotive refrigerant used to replace R12. Interestingly, theres one oil type that works perfectly with both types of refrigerants. Why wait for 200f on the engine coolant to start the fan? Is there a graph? I'm curiousSo there is work to do, ie performance should be able to be improved. As noted, measure up front as best as you can to get as close to the aftermarket dim. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. One of the differences between auto air conditioners that have been redesigned from R12 to R134a is that the condensers have gone from serpentine to pseudo-parallel. maintain the A/C of older cars. The only material difference between automotive A/C and a window A/C unit or refrigerator is that in the home application, the components are all inside the same rectangular box, but in the automotive application, the components are distributed throughout the car. Bohica, I appreciate your help with this. PDF COMPARISON OF Rl34a AND R12 REFRIGERANTS IN A VAPOUR - AIVC The global warming potential measures the amount of heat trapped by any gas compared to the amount of heat trapped by the same amount of carbon dioxide. If the system was upgraded by a professional it should have an upgrade sticker. I put in a new (not reman) compressor (R4 I believe it is) in my merc 240D, new drier, new expansion valve, new o-rings, nylog. R134a compressors are substituted as new to retrofit the R12 system compressor part numbers with different height sealing washers. Generally you follow the refrigerant flow moving from connection to connection, component to component, and you sniff the a/c vents to check for evaporator leaks as well. shown for the parallel flow, aluminum condenser that is listed. In no particular order, here's what I've found out regarding answering the questions posed so far:Fonebone - It is definitely an R4 compressor (they left the c off the front and the p off the end, i.e. 1) Warm Air From Vents. There is only a temperature switch on these cars as far as I recall, and it just switches on the aux fan. Look deep into the fins. Catalog E-1, Thermostatic & Automatic Expansion Valves / Page 1 Table of Contents . You may have heard of a friend that did the job himself with borrowed equipment and 12 or 16 ounce cans of refrigerant. Its chemical symbol is CCl2F2. R12 is highly destructive to the earths ozone layer. If you have the work done, be sure you find a true "A/C" shop that can make up lines. Amazon.com: 134a Valve Expansion Valves Catalog E-1, July 2012. compressor, condenser, evaporator and expansion valve are specifically designed for use with R134a. As R134A refrigerant has different operating characteristics and pressures this valve is not necesssry. In the automotive world, the replacement for R12 was R134a. As illustrated in the chart below, the curves below run together nearly throughout the curve, only slightly breaking paths at around 250 psig/150 degrees and above Flammability/Safety R-1234yf has been designated as MILDLY flammable. The experimental values of C.O.P.H obtained with the R134a/ester charge were 20.2% The ratings for evaporator temperatures 40F, 20F, -10F, -40F in the capacity tables are in accordance with ANSI/ARI = R134a Charge Level R12 Expansion Valve = 201 830 06 84 R134A Expansion Valve = 201 830 04 84 Is there a difference after all? Unfortunately, the oil only mixes with the refrigerant as a liquid. Is there more info needed?THanks -------------------------1983 Mercedes 240D on R12 and WVO!1192 Mercedes 300D 2.5 R134a1993 Toyota Pickup converted to R134a, Paul:I had to dig a bit deeper - MB made several running changes in the 1983 123'sThere are actually 4 different circuit diagrams for the A/C system that year - just for your 123.123 I found the R4 reference, and it should have 170 Ml of oil in the system.Your aux fan should run at the ambients you listed. Also, it can be used with all types of compressors. Therefore, the R12 refrigerant is illegal, and emitting it is illegal. ). Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. R-12 - yellow R-134a - light blue R-22 - green R-402A - light brown (sand) R-402B - olive R-404A - orange R-407C - medium brown R-410A - rose R-507 - teal J Originally Posted by goldNSX. For example, at an evap temp of 30 (your daughter's system is probably running around 25-28 saturated in order to give a 32 duct temp), the pressure of R-134a is 26.1psi. The approval is very legal one, governed by the U.S. EPA. Reattach the hose lines using new R134a compatible o-rings, lightly lubricate with compressor oil. Boiling Point: R134a refrigerants boiling point is -26.3C (-15.34F). difference between r12 and r134a expansion valvewarning signs for a deteriorating patient with covid 19 infection 2022.07.03 18:36 18:36 But, if your old compressor has lock-up or if your current expansion valve is not functional it would wise to replace the expansion valve with a valve designed for R134a. might be due to charge or different compressor and age. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. Differences between R-12 and R-134a systems: 1. Very nice! A comparison between R12 vs. R134a temperature will show that R12 has a higher temperature than R134a. If you find any of these conditions you will want to liquid flush (with dedicated AC flush solution) all the lines, condensers, evaporator (remove the expansion valve) before you proceed further. Thus, when the system is running, condensing the CO2 is not a problem. In this study, without the need for major modifications to the bus air conditioner, the variation of the ejector dimensions according to different parameters has been investigated in the case of using the R1234yf, R1234ze(E), or R600a refrigerants, which may be a substitute for R134a as a refrigerant due to . _____ 2012 E350 2006 Callaway SC560 . Minor adjustments to the expansion valve and other controls may be necessary for some plans. ~ Mahatma Gandhi, Gandhi, An Autobiography, M. K. Gandhi, page 446. R12 contains a chemical called chlorine that destroys the ozone layer, thereby causing potential environmental risk. You do not have to split up the 5-6 oz of oil and add it to each component, just simply put it all in the compressor as it will move throughout the whole system once the system is operational. Before R12 was replaced with R134a in 1995, it was mostly used in trucks and cars. The only mechanical differences between an R12 system and an R134a system are that R134a systems typically have larger condensers and more powerful compressors. Is there a difference in the expansion valve for R12 as opposed to R-134a? By after changing just about everything, he got what was termed, satisfactory cooling. However, you can convert R12 to R134a by yourself, save money and keep all the tools purchased. Gnats & mosquitos will clog deep. Recomanem consultar les pgines web de Xarxa Catal per veure tota la nostra oferta. There is more to check.The evaporator must be clean as well as the condensor - was this a smoker's car?You should check the water control valve for the heater core. Get to the point where I can walk without crutches2. leading to corrosion of expansion valves, capillary tube plugging, and compressor bearing . Please enter a password for your user account. Use a strong surfactant like Simple Green or Zep Citrus, and soak the fins on the condensor. The common problem when converting from R12 to R134a is lack of knowledge or equipment. The analysis focuses on Coefficient of Performance for . A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues. The MB chart shows 360 psi with R12 in some conditions. The condenser water inlet temperature and flow rate are controlled with the use of a . . Rich Membership Chairman Using R134a in an R12 system will cause the oil not to move with the refrigerant, causing a system failure and probably won't even cool the system well, if at all. Gain access to our free AOP (Ask a Professional) Section to get real answers for your questions. 2) Frost on the Vents. The whole trick is to sit there in those steam boxes and not perspire, it's vulgar to perspire when driving on public roads.If you want esteem, drive an MB, if you want comfort with 60*F interiors in a 125*F environment, get a Caddy. So if you car has a large amount of rubber hose, such as a 40 feet with the 911, then you will be re-charging the system often and that is expensive no matter which refrigerant you use. Neuro spine Super Speciality Clinic - Above Apollo Pharmacy, Bangarpet Circle, Kolar - Bangarpet Road, Kolar Town. If the charge is low the compressor will cycle on/off in the max AC position. Instead, top off R12 with R134a refrigerant. "Howdy, Folks!" Spray it deep, and let it sit for a few minutes. AC R12 to R134A Conversion | MR2 Owners Club Forum Nevertheless, if your application is configured only for R12, then you can use it or consider replacing the applications engine. At 2000rpm, windows open, highest fan, hi pressure stabilized at 225 psi, low 25psi.Ambient 81F, vent 61F. What is the refrigerant property involved that has caused this? With tube & fin condensors in MVAC applications there is never "too much" airflow. This is because R134a. The cost of recharging the air conditioner is between $150 to $500. It can be used applications like walk-in coolers, food and dairy display cases, domestic refrigerators, and beverage dispensers and vending machines. It's best to determine on a case-by-case basis while monitoring system pressures and output air temperature. Expansion Valve for R134a? | Team Chevelle There are significant differences between R12, R134a, and R513A, which must be considered when handling, processing, applying, or retrofitting with these refrigerants. These cheap kits usually have a few cans of R134a (either 12 ounce or 16 ounce), maybe an extra can of refrigerant oil, a few generic R134a charge port adapters and maybe some o-rings. (You must log in or sign up to reply here. hardly noticable. Paul:A 1983 240D should have a York compressor on an OEM system. Can I use the one for the R-12? R-12 is no longer used or produced in many countries and remaining quantities have skyrocketed in price. R134a is called tetrafluoroethane (HFC). 4.3 out of 5 stars 491. Consider using the newer valve, even with 134a stamped on the valve. We sometimes use a relay switched from the compressor clutch to run fans. is good, then I should be looking elsewhere? Failure to abide by the EPA regulations can result in expensive fines for either you or your service technician. But, if your car lacks enough condenser and you have many 100+ degree days then you may want to stick either increase air flow, add another condenser as we mentioned in The Mr. Ice Project or stick with R12. 1.5 ounces - hmmm. R12 is simply too expensive for a 25+ year old A/C system. R134a and R12 are both refrigerants used in vehicle air conditioning systems. GWP is a measurement of Greenhouse Gases and their effect on Global Warming. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve You can also check the Aux fan in your case. Anyone know what happens when an R12 expansion valve is used in a system charged with R134A? Super heats are so close, it should not be a major concern.-------------------------The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. I found that in the..Maxposition on the control it will have the compressor running all the time. At this time you can still find R12, but, because it is no longer produced, availability is limited to current inventories and the price per pound is greater than R134a. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve As per their results . The P H and T cond,sat of the HR12 at a T oa of 40 C were higher than that of the R134a, resulting in a higher P e than that for the R134a. Are r12 and r134 fittings different? Performance doesn't seem to have improved. Its highest value is 1. Like say half a can or so recharge come springtime warm weather or something. According to the thermodynamic characteristics, it is close to the R12 freon, however, it is 10-15% worse in terms of cooling capacity and is more fluid. Ensure you contact a professional mechanic to do the work for you so you dont end up incurring more costs for yourself. Typically 5 to 6 ounces of a/c oil is adequate but this may vary depending upon the car. Since you will be using less R134a than R12 you do not want to rely on the driers site glass to determine if the system is full. Flush with a garden hose - do not use a high pressure washer - you can bend the fins flat & damage the condensor.B. CR4P). Here are the basics for converting a system that does not have a charge of R12, its empty. In cases such as this, the required capacity value of the expansion valve with R134a is reduced by 30% (correction factor 1.42). What was the ambient when you took that reading?Jumpering the aux fan is a common thing here in the desert. how to get to disney springs from boardwalk / bb dakota plaid jacket canada / difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. . Table 1 summarizes the technical characteristics of three potential R134a alternatives. 3) A/C Compressor Always On. I cleaned the evap as best I could, if that is what you are getting at. Quick View. But with an R4, better too much than too little.3) A TXV optimized for 134a will be ok with R12.4) The airflow across the condensor is crucial to good performance. These differences in the valve size can be attributed to the correlation of the cooling capacity with the enthalpy difference and the mass flow, which in . Bookmarks: Digg; del . gital control scheme. If you still find it difficult to use R134a in a home AC system, you can check out a comparison of R12 vs R134a fittings to know the refrigerant that best fits the AC system. Stopleak is also risky. The oil is spread all over your system when it is at rest. B. He started writing automotive articles to share his garage experience with car enthusiasts and armature mechanics. Then again, there are two different expansion valves. But R22 is almost equally damaging. Sense ells no existirem. A final difference is that most (though not all) R-1234yf cars will have a Suction Line Heat Exchanger. The safe high side pressures are determined with a PT (pressures and temperatures) chart. All pre-97 XJs use systems with the same basic operating principle, although the parts do change a bit. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve If it splashes inside the eye, it could lead to a serious eye problem. If ambient is 90 (today) and the output of the condensor is 110, that's pretty good isn't it? A. Pressure/temperature table for R12, R134a, and R513A is shown in Figure 1. . asia pacific stevie awards 2021. gin, amaretto cocktail. Above this temperature, the saturation pressure of R134a is higher than that of R12; below, it is lower. R12 to 134A conversion. | Allpar Forums Miscibility with oil: R12 can be mixed with the compressor oil no matter the operating condition. Mark Baker R-401b is the mixture by weight of 61% R22, 11% R-152a and 28% of R-124. R12, on the other hand, is called chlorofluorocarbon (CFC). With new R12 no longer being manufactured, the market price soared to $100/pound. Environmental Impact: When R134a escapes into the atmosphere, it contributes to global warming. The non-flammables can have R22 type gas which is not compatible with most rubber hoses or they have gases that contribute to global warming. If you you dont have the free time to play then you are better off to pay a technician. Bottom line, R134a simply doesn't cool as well as R12. The smoking question & vent airflow indicate that the evaporator is fairly clean - and you are aware of the importance of that.The heater valve stops the flow, but there is always some conduction heating. R-134a is widely believed to be the most acceptable R12 substitute. Best for varieties of operating conditions: Its boiling point is -21.6 Celsius. R134a is otherwise called 1,1,1,2 Tetrafluoroethane, Florasol 134a, Freon 134a, Norflurane (INN) or HFC 134a. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve The larger line at the expansion valve is the suction line. Edited: Tue July 17, 2007 at 3:25 AM by bohica2xo, I believe there is only one switch - the refrigerant switch. Also, since R134a uses synthetic oil, it has a low global warming potential, unlike R12 which uses mineral oil which poses a negative environmental impact. And I lied about the compressor switches on this car - there are 2 switches on the drier - a temp and a pressure switch. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." You either get a system that will function well with R1234yf or get any other type. and feeds it through an expansion valve. Bookmarks: Digg; del . What is needed? I have the original (R12) style expansion valve in the Maverick AC system. A slow loss of cooling at city speeds is usually related to condensor capacity & airflow issues.You could improve the cooling capacity by replacing the condensor with a high effeciency parallel flow unit. Also, if you want to know what happens if you put R134a in an R12 system, you should first confirm if the R12 system can be replaced or if the refrigerants can be mixed. I would suggest you do stay away from R-134a since with the hot gas bypass of your system (if it is to be just as the original) extremes of temperature and pressure will be very hard on your compressor and the rest of the system. You may need to adjust the valve in a bit to get desired superheat. A vacuum pump, a refrigerant recover system, quality service gauge set with both low and high side gagues, and much more besides the lessons to learn what to do and what not to do. Is there a difference between a R134a expansion valve and an R12 TXV? Nice to use new gadgets! Replied by Rich928 on topic R12 or R134a. To ensure the right charge, you must fill the new system with between 75 and 85% of the factory-set capacity for optimal cooling. June 21, 2022 difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve . The major reason for the replacement of R12 with R134a was to curb future greenhouse effects. Most importantly, the oil used in the plant must always be compatible with the refrigerant used. You'll get marginally better performance out of the change as the expansion valve is matches the refrigerant characteristics. Disconnect the two hose lines to the compressor, protect the ends from getting dirty. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve Is there a source of valves by, say, eaton number? When I compare parts, 93 uses one part number and 94 has a different part number. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve With R134a you do not rely on the site glass. Replace the drier with a drier that has a desiccant that is R134a compatible, use new R134a o-rings. With that said, I would source the TXV from another source such as NAPA just to avoid any problems. This works when the R12 charge specification is listed in pounds. If he is not in the garage fixing challenging mechanical problems, he is writing automotive repair guides, buyers guides, and car and tools comparisons. At this point it is time to make an appointment with the a/c shop. A/C R12 to R134a Conversion Success | IH8MUD Forum evarporator, expansion valve plus flushing out the full system and replacing all the o rings. Its chemical symbol is CH2FCF3. The compressors used by refrigeration plants to compress gas require oil to help lubricate its moving parts. Any advice appreciated. To bless the system the technician should attach a R134a sticker somewhere in the engine compartment to note the car is using R134a. James10952001. difference between r12 and r134a expansion valve. The higher the ambient temperature the higher the high side pressure. Be sure to test @ 1500 to 2000 engine rpm, and record the ambient temp as well. To prevent refrigerant loss you should consider replacing your old hose lines with barrier type hose. The expansion valve(Tx) is in the car at the inlet line to the evaporator with compressors you best get advice from an ac specialist shop as the differences could be the gas that it pumps some systems use R12 and others use R134a or later gas yes R1234yf Freon gas can be replaced by R134a; the newer systems were designed with this in mind so no, there will be no damage to the compressor but some time in . Or is there always room for improvement, the more the merrier. This would become an expensive investment for a repair or service station to have unique dedicated equipment for every type of alternative refrigerant. I had to vaccum the system for 2 hours and recharge 4 oz of PAG oil plus 36 oz of 134A freon (3 cans). R-12 expansion valves can be re-used, but will not be as efficient as R-134a specific ones because of the slightly different pressure specs of R-12 vs. R-134a. A/C Expansion Valve Replacement Cost. R134a has a smaller molecule than R12 so R134a will leak out sooner than R12. Safety: R134a is safe to use as its non-flammable and cant explode. Lets take you through the advantages, disadvantages, and differences of these two refrigerants a detailed comparison including R12 vs R134a performance. I had a 1991 BMW switched to 134a by just changing the low pressure charging valve, flushing and refilling with 134 (maybe with 10% . Just had knee surgery yesterday, so I"M not exactly hopping around too well. . 5. Make sure to wear safety gloves, goggles, and shoes when theres a possibility of exposure to the chemical (R134a). Also the new quick connect fittings for the high & low side. -------------------------"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
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